House of Lords, Second Reading on the Concessionary Bus Travel Bill

Lord Bradshaw welcomes this Bill but says issues of how money is awarded locally must be addressed

Lord Bradshaw, Liberal Democrat Transport Spokesman

Lord Bradshaw said: 'My Lords, we welcome the Bill, although we feel that the money has been spent in a rather careless way and that it could perhaps have been spent better. However, as regards the objects of the Bill, we agree with the Minister. The problems spring from the haste with which the arrangements were implemented after an announcement by the Chancellor before the last election, and they also spring from political ends rather than from those that meet practical objectives and efficiency in implementation. But increased bus use, which has certainly taken place within limited resources, is an aim that we all share.

'Money has been - I use these words advisedly - sprayed around through the random mechanism of the rate support grant. It is, I submit, something of a blunderbuss approach to the issue, rather than one that we would ascribe to the surgeon who is trying to pinpoint the cause of the trouble. In summing up, my noble friend will highlight some of the problems that arise for local authorities, some of which have gained and some of which have lost from the way in which the money has been spent. The result is that some money - but not enough in every case - has gone to those that, with lots of bus services and lots of pensioners, are in greatest need and other money has gone to those with very few bus services and many fewer potential beneficiaries. This is what I call bad outcome No. 1 - the money has been spent carelessly.

'In the areas with passenger transport authorities, to which the Minister made reference, the money has gone to their constituent district councils, which may or may not pass the money on to the authority charged with the job of securing bus services. This is what I call bad outcome No. 2 - the money has not flowed to the people who need it. This is an indirect route for paying subsidy: it pays little regard to actual bus use and is full of leakage.

'Bad outcome No. 3 is that the maximum bureaucracy has been created with, as the Minister said, every district council negotiating separately with each of their bus operators about the reimbursement that they should receive as a result of participating in the scheme. This is at a time when local authorities, of which I am a member, are obliged to reduce staff and bureaucracy. That system is inefficient and creates bad feeling among district councils on the one hand and bus operators on the other, when those two groups should co-operate in providing the highway space and other facilities necessary to provide a good bus service.

'Bad outcome No. 4 is the appeals mechanism, to which the Minister made reference. The timescale is limited to 28 days. An operator must appeal within that time, but that is before he has carried any passengers and before he knows how many passengers he will be carrying or what costs or losses he may face.

'There are other bad outcomes, but there is also the overwhelming good outcome that more people are using buses. I noticed in my district council area that the number is up about 45 per cent. Many more people are using buses, despite the defects to which I have referred and despite what the noble Lord opposite said. We want an even better outcome that gives further scope to grow the market and to redirect subsidy to increase the market further.

'If we have national scheme, the money can go to where people are using buses. For example, lots of people come to Blackpool in the summer, but the Blackpool Corporation currently gets no money from them. Bus operators in honey pot areas - be they Edinburgh, Blackpool, London or wherever - should get some reward for what they provide. We could have one set of centrally negotiated national reimbursement rates, and consider a growth factor where operating costs have demonstrably increased. In some cases, there are so many extra people using the buses that more have to run. Providing more buses is expensive.

'Where they exist, passenger transport authorities should be the conduit for the money. Otherwise, district councils, which are not transport authorities, should not be involved in smart cards, the cash flow or negotiations with operators. Where those district councils are highway authorities, they should concentrate on the issues of the free flow of buses in their area. Bus drivers, who have a difficult enough job anyway, should not be involved except to see that a valid smart card is presented to the card reader on the bus. That could well speed up boarding times and shorten journey times.

"As the Minister said, the Bill is enabling legislation; real meat will appear in the regulations. I hope that real discussions will take place with all involved, mapping a quick way forward. I wish the Bill every success and hope that the Minister will take account of what I have said.'

The Earl of Mar and Kellie, Liberal Democrat Transport Spokesman

The Earl said: 'In preparing for this debate one fundamental question arose which I looked at from a Scottish angle. I wonder whether the Minister could clarify the extent of local bus services, as he started to do earlier. I hope to understand how far a local bus service might allow a card holder to travel.

'Am I right to presume that a free long-distance journey will have to be taken by a sequence of local services rather than by one express bus? Will English card holders be able to access local bus services anywhere in England and not just in their local areas? During the Minister's speech I began to get the idea that that was the case. I can see that for longer journeys in England the railway will be less deserted by bus pass holders than may happen in Scotland because, I gather, long-distance bus travel in England will remain at half-price rather than be free. At least in Scotland the temptation not to go by train, even with a senior railcard, when one can have a free bus journey, will continue to be very attractive. In Scotland, a different scheme has allowed many card holders to make substantial journeys unfettered by a start time in the morning, during the week or by the type of bus service to be accessed.

'It is perfectly okay for different Governments to have different schemes. I am pleased that the Government in Scotland have announced that a concessionary fare scheme for 16 to 18 year-olds will start in January 2007, giving young people one-third off single bus fares and a free young person's railcard that will give them one-third off rail fares. That is proof that Scottish solutions are enhanced when we have a First Minister who grew up on an island and a transport Minister who not only is a Liberal Democrat but represents an islands group.'

He concluded: 'My second and final point concerns the interesting provision in Clause 10 for possible reciprocal arrangements. I hope the Minister can say whether the idea is for the four schemes to be extended into each of the respective home countries and, if it is, according to which set of rules it will be done. For example, will Scottish card holders trying to access bus services in England have to accept the 09.30 am start and the use of local buses only, or could the Government in Scotland negotiate an extension of the unrestricted Scottish scheme across England, and vice versa? I hope that Clause 10 will be implemented but I recognise that there will be confusion if reciprocal schemes are different from the card holder's home conditions.

I conclude by asking whether Scottish 16 to 18 year-olds will be included in reciprocal schemes under Clause 10 now that, from next year, they will be getting used to the idea of concessionary fares.

Baroness Scott of Needham Market

Baroness Scott said: 'My Lords, I join in with the general welcome offered to the Bill. I assure the Minister and the rest of the House that comments from me and my noble friend Lord Bradshaw are very much in the spirit of wanting to see a Bill that is fit for purpose and that will achieve the objectives we all seek.

'The changes to the concessionary fares regime in recent years have led to a number of problems which have not yet been fully worked through and addressed, and which need to be considered carefully before we progress any further with the current proposals. The main issue for local authorities is that, while it is always possible for central Government to argue that they have funded a scheme totally, often the outcome has not been positive for individual authorities. That is always the result where funding has been based on variable inputs, such as population, demographics or economic indicators, rather than the outputs, as in this case; that is to say, how many trips are actually made. My noble friend Lord Bradshaw highlighted the need to think about a scheme that measures outputs rather than the rate support grant formula.

'Some issues need to be taken into account as we move forward. First, higher costs have accrued because more people are demanding passes. I gather that take-up in Scotland is now 95 per cent - it appears to be 100 per cent among noble Lords from Scotland in this House. In Exeter, for example, 78 per cent of eligible residents now have passes. That is highly desirable, but it shows why we need to have realistic estimates of take-up. There has been a hugely increased demand for services, much higher in Scotland and Wales than predicted, and, as I mentioned, equally so in English authorities.

'Set-up costs have been estimated at anything between £35 million and £75 million, depending on how the scheme is set up. How will those costs be met, and by whom? Will the passes be able to be procured nationally, which would save costs and ensure consistency and interoperability, so that they can be recognised right across the country? I add my support to my noble friend Lord Bradshaw and the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Leigh, in saying that, as the passes are developed, they must be capable of moving on to smart card technology.

'The noble Lord must accept that hackles have been raised and suspicions aroused by the clause which includes the possibility of changing the level at which these decisions are made, particularly at a time when local government structures are being so carefully looked at. It seems extraordinary to make the argument for cost saving by making a national scheme and then not include such provision in the Bill. If that had been done, we could either argue for or against it and we would know where we were. It seems rather odd that the noble Lord made the case for the measure in his opening speech, did not include it in the Bill but kept the relevant power.

'Like other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Low, I welcome the possibility for widening the scope of the scheme, for example to include community transport schemes. In rural areas such as the one where I live such schemes are far more important than bus services. Community transport schemes are the only way forward in deeply rural areas, where there are very few bus services. In areas where there is a light-rail system or schemes such as the Croydon Tramlink, it is vital for integration that the concessionary scheme should include both of those.

'I look forward to Committee, when many of these issues will no doubt be aired further.'